As the owner of a doctorate in biblical studies, I am regularly asked by one aspiring doctoral student or another whether I think he or she should walk the same path. Nearly always, I am taken aback by the vigor and ambition of such people. In my own life, the studies that led up to doctoral work, the immersion in biblical texts and languages that the experience itself made possible, and the skills and network of scholars that it percolated into my life have congealed into a profound blessing.
I believe the endeavor to be capable of fostering deep acuity with regard to matters biblical and theological. Furthermore, I’m convinced that both Church and society urgently need thought leaders schooled and shaped in just this way if they are to experience discernment rather that vulnerability, wisdom instead of folly, and faithful maturity instead of vacuous striving after whatever wind blows most strongly at the moment. With good reasons, certain traditions value their ‘doctors of the Church’ for the critical niche ministry they exercise in her midst.
Why, then, does the joy of such conversations mingle with a touch of apprehension and even reluctance? Reflection on this question persuades me that my mixed emotions come from a veteran’s and observer’s awareness of the deep, unspoken costs that doctoral work in biblical studies and theology inflict upon those who pursue it and those who love them. Most worthy things do just this.
I have come to believe that most intellectually gifted Christians who at some point consider embarking on such a path should not do so. Rather, it is the calling of a deliberative, thoughtful, highly committed few.
Maybe shaping my thoughts in the following way will prove helpful—or at least fruitfully provocative—to someone:
Should
A person who has experienced concrete, fruitful ministry to a cross-section of real people
Should not
The intellectually curious theologian with no track record of serving needy human beings
Should
A person whose theological convictions have been shaped into something identifiable, name-able, shared by a community, and proven in life
Should not
The Christian who wants to discover the world of the Bible and what to believe about it
Should
A person with a Christian community’s support in the project and the real-world accountability that this provides
Should not
The individual believer in pursuit of self-realization and/or academic challenge
Should
A person with sufficient economic reserves or ongoing income to support himself/herself and family during a project of which the duration will almost certainly prove longer than calculated
Should not
The individual who believes things will work out financially, somehow
Should
A person with a proven record of self-starting and steely persistence in the face of obstacles
Should not
The Bohemian free spirit
Should
A person who is temperamentally shaped (and where appropriate, married to a spouse of similar character) for a lonely, solitary, and arduous process of tearing down and building up, tearing down and building up, tearing down and building up
Should not
The people-pleaser with little or no inner strength or standard
Should
The person who understands what people mean when they rattle on about the Great Chasm that allegedly lies between the ‘intellectual’ and the ‘practical’, but has never actually seen it with his own eyes
Should not
People who think they know what is ‘relevant’ and what is not
Should
People who pray a lot
Should not
People who pray a little
Should
People who understand that prayer is living out loud before an onlooking Lord
Should not
People who pray too much and enjoy the fact that they do
If all these characteristics were absolute prerequisites to successfully pulling off doctoral study in biblical studies or theology, none of us would embrace the challenge. Still, I suggest they serve as parameters for self-sorting, particularly if a person works through them in the company of a marriage partner, network of friends, and/or church community where self-awareness is valued and sought.
If the Lord has called you to this kind of challenging and rewarding intellectual exercise, you are in for the time of your life! Sin boldly, pray regularly, and—above all—do not fear the truth no matter the quarter from which it comes. It all belongs to God, who rules in sheer delight over his complex, beautiful world (as well as the theological libraries where he shapes some of his most treasured daughters and sons).
Thank you very much for these very helpful thoughts! I’ve just started my master’s in Theology (with a BS concentration), and as I look ahead to pursuing a PhD in the future, it’s good to hear the advice of someone who has successfully traveled the road. Many thanks!
I wish you discernment and joy as your move ahead, Melanie.
David
I am currently working on my (honors)BA in Classics and Theology and have been leaning towards Biblical Studies for the past year or so.
I do appreciate your list of “recommended requirements” as I discern this “calling” as you call it. However, I feel that maybe a hunger for knowledge is sufficient cause to pursue further education, namely a doctorate in Bible. As a student of the Classics, I have come to appreciate knowledge for the sake of knowledge and a learning community which supports and challenges me (and knows what I am talking about when I say Ablative of Degree of Difference or that hoti clauses rock).
Maybe I am wrong, but I am glad I stumbled upon this blog through a Google search.
Dear Thaddeus,
I too believe that a hunger for knowledge is a noble motivation and often conducts one in the direction of still higher ones. Hoti clauses, indeed, do rock, whether anyone else recognizes it or not. When a learning community can dance to the rhythm of a hoti clause, you’ve stumbled upon a very fine thing.
The burden of the little contribution to which you respond is to claim two things: that a study of the biblical literate without a commitment to the loving deity to which it energetically bears witness, carries certain lethal risks. Most fields of endeavor do so, I think. The shape and substance of the liabilities one engages in our area of investigation are not entirely sui generis, yet they have their own particularities and I’ve attempted to describe a few of them.
The second claim I’ve wanted to make with regard to members of my own faith community is that the long haul of pursuing a PhD in biblical studies is unlikely to produce the fruit many naively suppose it will in the absence of certain enduring commitments. People who enter the process with the specific objective of serving the Church often emerge unable to do so. Something will have been gained if they and those who support them in the process begin the thing with eyes wide open.
Thanks again for your thought-provoking post.
David
I currently hold both a B.A. and an M.A. in Biblical Studies and find it invigorating. I intend to become a university professor in OT studies and am looking for a good doctoral program to enter.
I am, of course, quite hungry for suggestions as to WHERE. It seems that everywhere I find doctoral programs, I do not find this field; furthermore, where I find this field, I cannot find doctoral programs. You can appreciate my frustration.
That said, I am also willing to consider a quality, respected online degree program for this field, if such a thing exists. In a perfect world, I would be a doctoral student at this university, as well as teach there as I pay my dues, so to speak.
I am very, very curious about your response on this issue.
Dear Christian,
There are many PhD programs in Old Testament. I don’t know where you’re located, so I can’t be more specific at this time.
In the USA, many of them are located in universities, while others make their home in theological seminaries. There are important distinctions between the two.
University doctoral work in Old Testament (this is my field, by the way) is often done within faculties or departments of religions, Near Eastern studies, humanities, and the like.
My advice is to start with what you know: Where did your teachers at the B.A. and M.A. levels study? Which programs served them well? Where would they recommend you look?
I hope this helps to get you started.
David
Dear Dr. Baer this is quite an interesting post to stumble upon while goggling doctoral programs as I procrastinate completing my “reading Journal” for a systematics II course at Fuller. Since you have responded to the other posts I figure maybe you will respond to me.
I have almost completed an MA in BS and Th. I have two electives to go and am hoping to arrange independent studies to focus on my passion and prepare for future work. I am really interested in helping people interpret the bible more accurately. I think this could be improved if people thought less of the bible as written directly by God and gave more consideration to the people that were involved. So I think more recognition should be given to how the bible is like a story, how the authors/editors used narrative techniques that any artistic writer would use to further their message. I feel that most people are completely oblivious to the role of metaphor in the bible and christian theology as a whole. I would like to do further research on this. But also a possibility for an independent study that I have talked over with a professor, would involve Richard Hays “Echoes of Scripture in the Letters of Paul.” I love this kind of thing. Also issues in translation, when and whether to be literal or paraphrase. I majored in Eng. Lit and worked in journalism for a while.
About further studies: Ten years ago at a charismatic church service (I am not from that background but was visiting) I heard a dynamic sermon the point of which was, “God wants to bring to fruition the deepest desires of your heart, because he is the one who planted them there.” I found myself asking what IS the deepest desire of my heart and a picture came into my head and the words “Bible professor.” This was out of the blue and I did not do anything about it for about two years. During this time I acknowledged that this was indeed a topic of great interest to me. So I decided to lead the women’s retreat and see how that went, if it would confirm abilities as a bible teacher. Well that was a smashing success. Then I asked people at my church what they thought and they were all wildly enthused. So I have been attending seminar part-time while having and raising two kids.
Seminary has been kind of safe and comfortable, as it’s just studying and not worrying about how you will use this after you’re done. Well, actually, I have done an abundance of worrying about this! Whenever I say, I had a call to be a bible professor, which I half believe, people immediately say you need a doctorate. And of course, I would love to get a doctorate, but I also would rather just start teaching NOW, with the MA. But I don’t know where. If I had no fear of failing or being laughed at, I would like to initiate Bible 101 or Reading the Bible as a narrative courses for nonChristians. Since I think it is such a beautiful book, surely everyone would be blessed by reading this. Or a course that orients people on fair and unfair ways of interpreting. Even though of course my calling would only be for the purpose of building up the church, the prospect of only using my degree to teach ss at my church feels demeaning. I’m just being honest.
So basically my plan is: finish degree. Continue your own research and writing on these topics of interest to you. Join regional bible societies, etc. Develop course outlines and look for opportunities to teach. My own church, other churches, …
I guess I could use feedback on what types of environments are appropriate for teaching with a mere master’s degree!
Also the whole idea of calling. Yes, I would love to be a bible professor. I think I would be very good at it. But I did not buckle down and make that my first priority from the moment this idea popped into my head (or, I received a “call.”) This is partly because it seemed too good to be true. I really did/do doubt that God’s will for me could possibly also be what I would love. Also partly, I did not see how I could pursue the requisite studies and also fulfill my duties as a wife and mother. I feel bad saying that because my husband is the most supportive of men and that is no reflection on him — it was how I felt. Maybe I was lazy? Anyway, it has been 10 years, I’m almost 40 now. (A young 40, I will acknowledge!)
I don’t know whether to pursue doctoral studies in order to increase the chances of becoming a bible professor, or if I am too old, or if I should seek other opps to teach, and if so, where? I am hoping opps will come up at the right time, since this is all worrying about the future.
what do you think?
Dear Amy,
Thanks very much for your post.
As I attempt to read your self-description with discernment, a few thoughts occur:
(a) You *are* a Bible teacher/professor. Clearly people are responding to a gifted teacher who leads them into a clearing whether they can imagine the intersection of their lives with biblical reality more concretely than before. Your aspiration is to see where this might lead, not to ‘become’ a Bible teacher.
(b) The PhD is one input among many to lives like yours. Try to see it as a piece of an organic stream of personal and professional development. The PhD may or may not happen for you. But the development will, life-long.
(c) To some degree, your demographics militate against a PhD. You’ve made choices that may rule this one out. That’s ok, just a fact on the ground rather than a deep loss.
(d) Or your wonderful husband and your circumstances may take shape in a way that will surprise you. You may find yourself immersed in a PhD program at 45 or 48 or 50, drinking it all in with a maturity and verve that are impossib le at 27.
(e) YHWH is a specialist at granting us the desires of our hearts, not least when we have decided we are too distant from them or too undeserving of them or that they are ‘too good to be true’. He may surprise you and it may be with a PhD or it may be with something even better.
(f) I encourage you to push gently but firmly on the doors before you and to see which ones open and where they lead.
Vaya con Dios,
David
Thank you. Deep wisdom, profoundly appreciated.
Thank you for contributing to the wider conversation about theological education and discerning vocation.
I am part of a distributed learning cohort for the MDiv with the goal of becoming a (second career) hospital chaplain, not a parish pastor. (The DL MDiv is similar to the cohort model that is more common in the DMin program; 2/3 online and 1/3 on campus)
Several months into my systematic theology coursework, my professor suggested I consider PhD studies. It’s not a suggestion I could just brush off indiscriminately.
I appreciate the tension you identify though between wanting to encourage students to reach for the PhD, and cautioning us against its costs. It’s one I have heard echoed by others.
While I think it would be foolish for me to leave doctoral studies and teaching unexplored, I am convinced I cannot make the decision quickly, and I am listening for discernment. John Polkinghorne writes that if one has trouble fitting facts into theory, it doesn’t necessarily disprove the theory; “it may just mean that more is going on than we had first appreciated.”(Quarks, Chaos and Christianity, 16)
In that spirit, your reassurance of YHWH’s providence, in response to Amy, is especially welcome .
Thank you.
Chris,
Your post delights my heart this Sunday afternoon.
I love the Polkinghorne quote. May there be ‘much more’ going on as you deliberate and may it prove to have been more generous and good than you can at this moment imagine.
David
Hi David,
Thank you so much for this blog site. It has been tremendously helpful. I’ll give you a brief background. I’m currently a Young Adult Pastor in Calgary, Canada. I finished my BA (Hons) at Nazarene Theological College in Manchester England. I’m almost done my thesis from the University of Manchester and I’m thinking of doing the PhD program from the same place. My situation is unique but familiar. Nazarene Theological College is an affiliated institution of the University of Manchester. Because I’m thinking of doing my PhD at the same place it would mean that all 3 degrees come from the same institution. There are a number of reasons why I want to follow this route. One is financial cost. There is a bursary that I’m qualified for that will cut my tuition in half. Second, I really enjoy working with my supervisor. Third, I really don’t intend to teach in the near future. I’m really looking at the PhD as an opportunity to enhance my learning to be a better pastor. In any case, any suggestions and guidance would be appreciated.
Blessings,
Garry
Dear Garry,
It sounds as though you have things worked out. I have no further suggestions or guidance, though would be happy to attempt to respond to any specific queries you might have. Thanks for your kind words regarding canterbridge.
David
Hi David,
Thanks for your response. I completely forgot to watch for your response. I’ve finally graduated from my MA program My dissertation was entitled: Reconciled to be Holy: A Study of the Relationship Between Reconciliation and Holiness in Ephesians. I enjoyed my writing tremendously but wished I had more time to do a better job. I’m now in the process of figuring out what I should focus on in my PhD. Thankfully, in the British system my program consists of one thing, writing the dissertation. So any help with how one goes about choosing an area of study would be greatly appreciated.
Blessings,
Garry
Dear Dr. Baer,
I have found myself struggling with how I should proceed. I graduated with an MDiv from an institution 5 years ago that left me doubting that academia was as helpful as it claims. I went to graduate school because I was interested in learning more about God, His word, and to better myself for use in His Kingdom. What I was confronted with was a religion that seems rather disjointed from life. To call it “burn out” seems to fall short. I have had a hard time attending church for the last 7 years so that would take me out of some of your suggestions for those who should pursue a PhD. And yet at the same time, I am confronted with the desire to finish going as far as I can in biblical studies. I still consider myself a Christian and have not abandoned my faith because of people or situations/experiences. But I am wondering if I should proceed with more education, or go an entirely different route. Do you have any advice for me?
I figure you will probably tell me to find a community that I can be a part of before I do anything else. My wife and I are trying to do that very thing, but I’m having difficulty overcoming things that I see that I can’t come to terms with or submit to. Some of these things are connected to what I learned during my MDiv studies, and some of them are more of the frustration that comes from not being able to find my place.
I appreciate any thoughts you have for me whatever they may be or wherever they may lead. Thank you for being a voice of advice for the people that have submitted questions before me. God bless you.
Dear Brian,
Thanks for so audaciously opening up your story here on Canter Bridge!
Let’s take this conversation off-line. I’ll write to you.
Thanks.
David
Praise the Lord in JESUS Name!
Wonderful Insight!
I believe what was shared is valuable; as to shape ones mindset in our pursuits.
What i have learned over the years which is also “key” in our Bibilcai pursuits that we should keep in mind, is that simply learning, and gaining knowledge “is not the barometer” or qaulifier” of one being “chosen of GOD”.
Education in it’s right place and with the right perspective is wonderful and edifying; yet when it is used as a tool to define oneself as being truly called of God or possesing a greater level of intellect than others whom have not chosen this path, is borderline “pride”..
We educate ourselves for one reason and one reason only, to better strengthen our relationship with the Lord JESUS; not as a means to disqualify others and qualify ourselves.
I have found over the years, that those who we may deem “let’s educated”, in ways have “greater insight”,because of their “relationship with JESUS, not simply thier knowledge gained of JESUS..
I encourage us all to be greater “Witnesses” moreso; than just simply great Scholars..
The Bible commends us to “Grow and Grace in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ”
This can only be done through “humilty” and “reverence”..
Not through prideful ambition..
God Bless you All Mightly!
Learn all you can..YES..
But, it must be in the right perspective.
Because many things the Lord has for Us, can not be simply learned, but, must be revealed through the Holy Spirit, which in itself was given unto Us to lead Us and Guide Us into all Truth.
Dear Dr. Baer, I happened upon your site by accident, or perhaps by Providence. While I cannot say that I grasp the reasons underlying your shoulds and should-nots in all their particulars, I sense that your counsel is rooted in the kind of essential wisdom that only one who has walked the walk can fully appreciate, so I want to give your advice proper weight.
I will tell you candidly that I do not fit the mold of the typical PhD candidate and that I do not score well on your should/should not litany. My theological convictions have evolved continually throughout my life and I expect that process never to cease. That gives me at least one “should not” on your list, perhaps two or three. If my convictions are shared by a community of like-minded believers, outside of academic life, I have yet to discover that community. That’s another “should not,” I believe?
The youngest of our children is now off to college. I am 50 years old and I have the resources (time and money) to do what I really want. I have never failed to complete any substantial goal in life; strength of spirit and perseverance are not my weaknesses. But when I examine my motives honestly, I see that I am contemplating this course not for the purpose of better serving the needs of others, but for selfish reasons. I seek a community of people who share my passion for inquiry into the nature of God, as God is expressed in the world’s faiths.
I’m interested in researching the commonalities and differences in the world’s major faith traditions, at least in part as a basis for exploring a fuller realization of my own faith. That would appear to be another “should not.” I’m interesting in pursuing research and in educating others through writing, either for a lay audience or an academic one, but I feel no particular calling to join either the pastoral profession or to teach on a college faculty. I feel a need to get underway with a doctoral program if I am to do it. I know I will have the mental and emotional stamina to complete a PhD program now, but I’m not as certain I would if I were to defer it for another 10 years.
Perhaps you’ve already said all you have to say on this subject. If you have any other words of advice based on these facts, I would welcome them.
A couple of specific questions: Do you know whether universities generally discourage folks my age from initiating a doctoral program? Do you think there’s an ethical concern with my consuming the resources that might be put to more productive use for a younger PhD candidate?
Thank you,
Tim
I would like to pursue a Doctorate degree in Theology by Distance Education from Trinidad after reading your articles.
Dear Dr. Baer,
How does one discern a calling to get a PhD? I’m trying to figure out if God is calling me to it or not.
Thanks,
Dylan
Dear Dylan,
Good morning. I’m sorry I’ve been unable, until now, to respond to your post on canterbridge.
You ask a very large question.
Let me suggest two fellow travelers whose books you might find helpful: Parker Palmer’s LET YOUR LIFE SPEAK and my friend Gordon Smith’s LISTENING TO GOD IN TIMES OF CHOICE. THE ART OF DISCERNING GOD’S WILL.
I hope you’ll find one or both of these to be of help. They put things far more clearly than I can or could. Let me know if you think I can respond in a worthwhile way after you’ve had a look at these resources.
David
Dear Dr. Baer,
I am seeking a life in service as a socially active Christian, meaning (for the purpose of this text) one whom serves God by serving those in need economically and spiritually. I have visited several PhD programs nationally and am trying to decide which way to proceed. The 800 pound gorilla in the room is whether to spend my time in the classroom or in the community actually doing the work (my clock is ticking at age 56). My educational credentials include a BS in Business & Economics and a MSc in Organizational Psychology. My work experience includes 30 years in both corporate and private enterprises as a worker, executive and owner. I think often of the saying Think Big – Act Small…and wonder if my dreams are simply too big and fear sets in. However, I do not wish to remain a fearful servant, but one who is bold in faith….yet, has his feet on the ground. Any thoughts?
Please accept my gratitude for any suggestions.
With regards,
Roy
Dear Roy,
I’m sorry it’s taken me more than a month to respond to your post! And then that my response is so paltry as this one is going to be!
You sound as though you are asking the right questions. And I’m particularly taken by the declaration that you ‘do not wish to remain a fearful servant but one who is bold in faith … yet has his feet on the ground.’ That’s a very good place to be, I think.
What I can’t discern from your post is what you would want to study and for what purpose. These, too, are big questions.
I wish you every blessing as you work these things out and I thank you for reading and posting on canterbridge.
David
David Baer
how can know about bilblic phd,
inform us about it
David,
Thanks for the insight shared on your post. I definitely believe that the Lord is calling me to do it . I have been working towards that goal for the past two or
three years strengthening my application, by studying Greek and taking NT exegesis courses. However, I am curious as to why do you think that I should go for it. What makes you think I got what it takes?
David,
I come late to this conversation! But your ‘sifting’ process for whether or not to do a PhD is instructive – if a trifle challenging as I fit into every ‘should not’. But on the basis that ‘the stone rejected’ could turn out to be the grit in the oyster (!) I will have a go. I am 63 next week and am semi-confined to home looking after aging husband.
But the internet means that it is possible to access sites and ideas such as yours.
I’ll let you know!
and thankyou.
Maggie
Maggie,
I hope you will create a breath-taking pearl!
All best,
David
David,
Thank you for this post as it has helped move my thoughts forward. I do have some questions that I am looking for wise counsel with and your post has given me the feeling of wise counsel from your end on this subject. What degree would be the best prerequisite for Ph.D. study in theology? I will be starting a Masters program in the fall but have not totally nailed down which degree to pursue. My end goal is to teach in a Christian Seminary in the subject of Systematic Theology. Is it best to pursue an M.Div or an M.A. before moving forward with a Ph.D. down the road? Would you advise an M.Div followed by an M.Th? I have received many conflicting ideas from people and am a bit confused. Thank you for this blog and for this article. God bless!
Dear Daniel,
Many thanks for your post.
Your question seems to flow from a context in which many variables are at play. That makes a simple answer tough to come by.
Traditionally, the M.Div. is a professional and terminal degree. It is intended to prepare men and women for ministry.
The M.A. is an academic degree that can be terminal or can lead to doctoral studies. In many seminaries, the extra year that distinguishes the (traditionally) three-year M.Div. from the (same caveat) two-year M.A. is comprised of ‘ministry’ studies.
Although the M.A. was for some decades the conventional angle of approach to the PhD, some PhD programs now prefer the three-year M.Div. as their precursor.
The most I can venture is a rule of thumb and a word of counsel.
The rule of thumb: the less ministry experience that a person like yourself has accrued, the more value the M.Div. acquires, and vice versa.
The counsel: ask the gatekeepers of two or three doctoral programs that you can imagine taking what their preferred precursor is, then go for it.
I hope this helps.
All best,
David
Dear Dr. David
I have just stepped out into a ministry of my own, focused on evangelism in the communities around me. I am also asked many times to minister to the churches in my community. I have an urgency to study that I may rightly divide the word of truth.
Financially I would need a miracle as I live in one of the poverty stricken areas in Cape Town, South Africa. Yet, I know that this journey will prove to be extremely fruitful. I would preach with so much more confidence, vigor and conviction once I have this deep knowledge and revelation of Gods word. It is my dream to have my PHD/Doctors in Theology, Im 26 years old and I have a family of my own.
I do not want to be one who leads Gods people astray for a lack of knowledge and incorrect interpretation of the word of God.
Thank you for your profound words of wisdom. I ask that you would pray for me, that Christ would reveal His plan and I would know what my next step should be. I do not want my family to suffer financially.
God Bless you,
Shanon
Dear Shanon,
I apologise for the very long delay in responding to you. I love South Africa. I was in beautiful Capetown most recently last October.
May you find the wisdom you seek as you sort through the variables you have mentioned and no doubt others that you have not. You will find it, I’m sure.
David
David,
Thank you for this post! I am working on a dual Masters at GCTS-Charlotte and after talking and praying through the decision, my husband and I decided I should pursue a phd. I’ve also had encouragement from my professors to do so. The thing for me is that I’d love to eventually teach overseas in a community that is more in need of theological education/training for leaders than the US. Or at least work in a stateside school but spend summers teaching overseas. Would you mind emailing with me so that I could ask you a few more questions about this type of work? It seems with your ministry, Overseas Council, you might have some valuable insights for me! My email is deniseflanders@gmail.com.
Thanks!
Denise
Hi Denise,
Thanks for your post. Did you know that your Dean Laniak is one of my best friends in the world?
Your ambitions are honorable and exciting. I’ll email you offline, per your request, in order to talk further.
David
What I don’t get is that you offer links to unaccredited institutions? Is anything more shameful in the realm of education than those who claim academic credentials but have received ( not earned) theirs from “diploma mills.”
Dear Jon,
I believe you are mistaken. There are no links to educational institutions on Canter Bridge. You may have come to this blog via a third party that offers such links.
David
Jon,
You stated on 20th June that no links to educational institutions are shown on Canter Bridge.but yet Newburgh Seminary/College is listed above.
I take this to be Trinity Theological Seminary of Newburgh, Indiana. As an English nationally accreditated Preacher with an MA in Theology I understand Trinity is not accredited by DETC or has what I believe is called in the USA a Regional accreditation. I pass no judgement on the quality of the distance learning tuition but would be interested to have your opinion as to the value of a Doctorate from such an institution. I have corresponded with, and have respect for, some of Trinity’s tutors who hold recognised Doctorates so the question relates to the validity of the institution not the individuals.
I would be interested to receive your comments.as I am considering taking a Doctoral course aimed at a Christian approach to people with Mental Health problems from a British and American cultural lperspective
Yours sincerely,
Ron Sweeney
David my apologies my comment just posted was sent incorrectly addressed to Jon
You stated on 20th June that no links to educational institutions are shown on Canter Bridge.but yet Newburgh Seminary/College is listed above.
I take this to be Trinity Theological Seminary of Newburgh, Indiana. As an English nationally accreditated Preacher with an MA in Theology I understand Trinity is not accredited by DETC or has what I believe is called in the USA a Regional accreditation. I pass no judgement on the quality of the distance learning tuition but would be interested to have your opinion as to the value of a Doctorate from such an institution. I have corresponded with, and have respect for, some of Trinity’s tutors who hold recognised Doctorates so the question relates to the validity of the institution not the individuals.
I would be interested to receive your comments.as I am considering taking a Doctoral course aimed at a Christian approach to people with Mental Health problems from a British and American cultural lperspective
Yours sincerely,
Ron Sweeney
Dear Ron,
I’m not sure what you mean by your words ‘… but yet Newburgh Seminary/College is listed above’. I have not posted a link to Newburgh Seminary/College on Canter Bridge. I am not familiar with the school.
It may be that someone has posted a link to Canter Bridge on another site (perhaps even on Newburgh Seminary’s site?) and it may be that you have ‘clicked through’ that link to my blog. But of course I have no control over such posting of links, which is part of the interconnectedness of the Internet.
Accreditation is one of the ways that institutions of learning open themselves up to accountability beyond their own particular circles. My opinion is that, on balance, it is a good thing and I personally put a lot of weight on the courage it takes for an institution to seek, acquire, and maintain the respect of its peers as this takes place via the process of accreditation. In a context like the North American one, where there is ample opportunity for a school to become accredited and where non-accreditation is a fact on the ground with strong implications for the employability of its graduates, I would not counsel enrollment in an unaccredited doctoral program for something as career- and life-shaping as a doctorate. Others will disagree.
I am aware of some contexts that are so highly charged in an ideological sense that responsible educators come to the conclusion that accreditation would be counterproductive to their organization’s mission.
I don’t know the history, personnel, or particular concerns of Trinity Theological Seminary of Newburgh. No doubt these things would place their own institutional status in a helpful light.
All best,
David
Dr. Baer,
Thank you for taking the time to reply to the inquiries–I’ve benefitted much from them.
Not sure if you are familiar with Tyndale House (since you earned your PhD at Cambridge, I’m assuming that you are), but I had the rare privilege of conversing with Dr. Williams at an American conference about two months ago regarding the very things you have mentioned in your post and through your responses.
In a similar bent as your own, Dr. Williams encouraged me to examine and assess myself as to whether or not I was “called” or fit to pursue a doctoral degree in the Bible. As you have so clearly articulated, I am slowly learning the multi-faceted risks (as well as pleasures of course!) of pursuing a doctoral degree in a subject matter that incorporates a matrix of disciplines.
Considering the items you have mentioned in your post as foundational and given, what practical advice would you give to an undergraduate student aspring to pursue a PhD in the Bible?
I am hoping, and more fundamentally Lord-willing, to pursue an MDiv at Southern after getting a B.A. in History at my current institution.
Thanks again for your time.
Dear Erik,
Thanks for your post and apologies for the delay in responding.
Three of the best years of l life were spent at desk 4 in Tyndale House Cambridge! Peter Williams is a friend. I’m glad you were able to seek his counsel.
With respect to your question, I’d encourage you to take all the language, literature, and perhaps exegesis classes that you can get your hands around. As a biker or a runner simply needs to accumulate miles on the trail if he is eventually to race, most of us need plenty of these disciplines in order adequately to hone our intellectual and intuitive muscles.
agree with some, disagree with others. definitely agree that it requires the degree of commitment of someone who knows this isn’t a free-wheely zen thing where things magically work out. but at the same time, what is the whole point in pursuit of a PHD in theology if one limited it only to an academic pursuit and neglect the pursuit of God in the process?
so ones like “Should not – The individual who believes things will work out financially, somehow” really surprises me because, how can one experience God powerfully if one don’t believe “things will work out” in times of hardship and strife? is not faith being sure of what we hope for? and certain of what we do not see? if we do not leave ourselves vulnerable, how can we see the wonder of God?
it seems to me a lot of what’s listed under “should” is sound in today’s context. a strong willed, strong minded, “proven” individual with track record of overcoming obstacles, standing firm in the face of tribulations, etc… but what about the qualities which matter most? one who is not simply “self” reliant, but God reliant? one who may not stand as firm in times of tribulation, but grabs on to God firmly as Jacob did? is not the most important quality the contrite spirit of one who believes even when his eyes do not see?
Dear Jeff,
Thanks for your post. I’m sorry it’s taken me months to respond. I needed the time to dampen down my besetting defensiveness.
I suspect that, if we knew each other’s biographies, we’d decide that we agree.
David
Thanks for the “reality check”. God provides opportunities for his messengers. At 53, with my last son in the middle of high school, I am being challenged with a scholarship (which I aim to accept) from my institution to do a biblical studies MA and then to be bonded for 3 years after which I will be sponsored to do a PhD in OT biblical studies. There is a strong need for an OT-Hebrew scholar presently at the institution.
I really do love to read and have struggled immensely to read as much as I can in Koine Greek and Biblical Hebrew for for the past 8 years. It has been very hard (I read these languages for an average 2 hours daily, sometimes 4, sometimes all day) no matter what (rain or shine). Fellow-students have confidence in my help and professors enjoy my work.
I believe that the discipline of diligent study has made me into a very patient, capable, and forgiving church leader whose many exegetical mistakes the Lord has revealed and forgiven over time. I know that God has called a few of us into the kind of service that he called Moses, Paul of Tarsus, John the Revelator, Origen, Jerome, Aquila of Sinope, Augustine, Luther, Weiss, and Raymond Brown into. It is a most difficult work because of the dogma that prevails in our denominations.
If we cannot share the gifts that God give to us for church leadership and reform then we die “silently” without the gifts impacting the spiritual growth of our churches. Jesus, the greatest reformer, spent many lonely, silent hours doing his PhD with God on the mountain before he was capable of doing His work.
We are not called into comfort zones, let us give of our best to the master. Incidentally Moses started serious work at about 80 and John was a senior while at Patmos.
Well, James, what a thoughtful and delightful post. I could hardly overstate the overlap between the passions and commitments you have described and my own. We are also exactly the same age!
I wish you every blessing as you pursue your high calling to biblical scholarship.
David
I thought you might be interested in an update; I’m the “amy” from up above, three years ago! To my amazement, I am in the middle of a move from beautiful Seattle (which I will miss so much) to pursue a Ph.D. at Drew University, in New Jersey. When I read your list of ‘should’s and ‘shouldn’t’s I still think I only fit about one ‘should.’ So who knows, maybe this is just a terrible thing, but I do feel, as you advised, that I paid attention to doors that opened as well as the all important doors that shut and after graduating with a master’s from Fuller Seminary, teaching part-time at a local college, presenting papers 2 years in a row at our local SBL conference — I applied and was admitted at four schools in the U.S. and Canada. I will be studying Hebrew Bible primarily under the direction of Danna Nolan Fewell. One of the reasons I picked Drew is that for my stipend I will be tutoring the international students in their theology programs. I’ve done a lot of that already and I really enjoy it. I truly, truly, truly have no idea how I will manage to get all the work done in terms of research and writing. It feels like climbing Everest and I’ve only ever climbed a few 10-12,000 footers before. I am a little bit afraid of how I will manage to do that and give my kids the attention they need and deserve. But I don’t know, moving forward with this just seemed right, and I am hoping the pieces will fall into place at the right time. I am still exceedingly, exceedingly grateful to my husband, because although life was pretty near perfect for him and my kids, I myself had really just come to the end of the road in terms of meaningful existence and application of my gifts and interests in our current community. I really appreciate that he cared enough to notice that and make a change.
Dear Amy,
Thank you so much for taking the time to check in with Canter Bridge, and what amazing news you bring!
I wouldn’t worry too much about only ticking one ‘should’ box. All will be forgiven when you succeed dramatically, heroically, and resoundingly. Or even, for that matter, if you don’t.
Climbing Everest is not such a bad thing either. Life often feels like the ‘ascent’, I think from my hotel room here in Hong Kong. But it’s good exercise, you meet amazing people on the way up and even touch the heart of one or two of them, and then–sometimes–you make it to the top and its doxological view stretches out for miles and miles before you.
Plus, from what you report, you get to make the climb with an amazing husband who loves you, believes in you, and willingly gives up some very solid things for you. No doubt your kids are cut from the same cloth.
I ask myself, what is *not* to like about this picture?
Go get ’em, Amy! Pound hard on revision of your Hebrew verbs. And check in again from time to time.
Amy i am so happy for you. you are such an inspiration, i read your comments in 2009. i am happy that you have finally taken a step of faith and have obeyed your calling. i tell God will use you to do great and mighty exploits. i have been wanting to also pursue a Ph.D and after reading your testimony i have great faith that God will also make a way for me. wish you all the best with the studies,
,
I am so glad I stumbled on this post in my discernment about pursuing a PhD in Hebrew Bible. Thank you for your reflections; I think I understand what sort of person you are sketching with your categories.
In my own reflections, I think the strongest driving force has been my love of the Hebrew Bible, which I discovered in my very first Intro to OT class in my M.Div. program. This has been supported by those who have suggested that pursuing a PhD ought to be a labor of love, not a career move. Your reflections have given me more to consider. Thank you again!
Dear Jen,
Thanks for your post.
I’m happy that you find yourself with ‘more to consider’ by way of Canter Bridge. Yet my feelings are mixed, as I would not want you to move far from the motivating factor of your ‘love of the Hebrew Bible’ and your understanding that ‘pursuing the PhD ought to be a labor of love, not a career move’.
The first of these two things is pristine and essential; the second is simply true.
Maybe adding some additional ‘things to consider’ will have a reinforcing or purifying effect on these two realities. It seems to me that this would be a good thing. Just don’t give them up because of something you read here!
I wish you all the best as you seek and find the necessary discernment and courage.
David
I am 61 years old, ordained and a full time chaplain. I have a B.A. degree from a Bible College and a M.A.R. from an accredited theological seminary. I am a life long learner. I love to teach and disciple new believers. I am considering either a Masters or Doctoral degree from Master International Divinity School located in Indiana. They are not accredited but their programs appear to be solid. They are recognized by NANC as a training site for Biblical Counseling. I am not pursuing a degree to add a title to my name. I only want to enhance my skills as a chaplain and a teacher in the local church. I am also considering Tennessee Temple to further my education. I have also considered Denver Seminary. My interest are in counseling and theology. I would appreciate your thoughts on this matter . I struggle with this because of my age.
Dear Gary,
Thanks for posting on Canter Bridge.
Clearly, it’s the quality that counts. Especially at your (our …) age, we need to mine quickly the value of any educational project with which we engage and credentialing will have slipped from the top of our priority list.
There are arguably some valid reasons for a school to remain ‘unaccredited’. There are a host of bad ones. It’s worth digging deep to discover where the beef is (or is not) in a program whose leadership has chosen not to seek or has been unable to secure accreditation. That’s also true of an accredited program, but in the latter you have proxies accomplishing some of the due diligence on your behalf.
I don’t know the first two programs you’ve mentioned. I have very high regard for Denver Seminary. Given my ignorance of your alternatives, take this observation with the necessary grain of salt.
I wish every blessing upon your endeavor. I find very little reason to worry about ‘life-long learners’, as you describe yourself. People like you learn and thrive in good programs and bad. But the good ones are better.
All best,
David
Hello David,
I stumbled upon your wise advice and read the
Comments and questions asked of you. So
Here’s one from New Zealand. I am interested
In doing a Phd in Theology . Can you recommend any extra mural PhD programs?
Thanks
Jo
Hello Jo,
It’s always good to hear from a Kiwi, particularly since I had the opportunity to experience the Indy 500 motorcar race with a good Kiwi friend just a couple of days ago! He was crushed that Scott Dixon threatened to win for much of the race, but then did not. Thank you for your post.
I am not in a position to make the kind of recommendation you request, partly because there are so many personal/institutional variables in play and partly because I simply don’t know the extramural or distance field of doctoral work in theology well enough to have an informed opinion.
I hope your reading of this chain on Canter Bridge will at least have identified some of the questions you’ll want to ask as you interview prospective programs.
I wish you every success as you do so.
David
I would like to appreciate everyone on this blog. Most of the readers replied that whoever has hunger for knowledge can get doctorate rather than hunger for Life.The moment I say hunger for life and hunger for Knowledge. There exists lot of difference between knowledge and life. As per bible, knowledge,knowing what is good and bad, and not doing good and doing bad, and coming short of glory of God which eventually brings brings death.Our forefathers ate fruit of knowledge and inherited death even though the fruit of life was also available too, as choice .Wisdom (fear of God)brings life. Try to do doctorate for getting the wisdom(discernment to chose right things always to escape the wrath of God). I hope it is only possible without reading the user manual of the manufacturer who created human beings. Here the creator(manufacturer ) not the creation(universe), the manual to operate in a right direction always is Bible with God, but not bible knowledge which eventually disqualifies us from the Spiritual race and brings curse.having said that,having doctorate degree is good, don’t get it for the sake of knowledge, knowledge brings death.get it to know more about the manufacturer, the creator and his qualities to exhibit in our life to be the model/mirror of God(God manifested himself as Jesus Christ)
Suggestion is that read the master copy(Bible) with the help of holy spirit.
that will keep you always fruitful to god and to our neighbours.
Did God tell you to do Doctorate, or doing it for crazy ask yourself, will get answer.
intention is not to heart anybody
Dr. Baer,
I’m currently considering applying to the MDiv program at Westminster Theological Seminary. I’m hesitant to apply because I don’t know exactly where I want to end up. I don’t desire to pastor a church. What most appeals to me is writing and perhaps teaching at various churches throughout the country. I have considered the possibility of going on for doctoral studies after the MDiv but I’m not at the point where I’m 100% motivated to go that route.
I know this blog talks mostly about pursuing a doctorate but do you have any words of advice for those who might be considering a MDiv or MA in a theological discipline? Thank you.
Thanks for your post.
Traditionally, the M.Div. is considered the ‘ordination-track degree’ at a school like Westminster and among the constituencies it serves.
If you’re not headed towards pastoral ministry, you might consider one of WTS’ excellent Master’s-level alternatives to the M.Div.
They may give you the option of ‘opting into’ the M.Div. along the way if circumstances made that seem the better path.
All best wishes for life and studies,
David, for Canter Bridge
Dr. Baer,
I came across your article yesterday and I’m hoping that even though the last comments were posted last year that you will take the time to read this and respond. I am a the son of a pastor and even though there have been expectations, I have never felt the “call” to be a pastor of a church. I do have gifts in music and have contributed to the music of the church and continue to do so. I am currently registered for a musicology master’s program which I will be starting August 2013, so my journey in the direction of fulltime religious work is about to begin.
Through out my life, my employment has been secular, however, I now desire to devote my life to working in a christian arena in the area of music and also work fulltime in a religious setting such as a university. I am an intellectual and have found corporate America to be a drag; I enjoy engaging in intellectual discourse, discussing ideas, and have over my life talked to a number of people about what the Bible has to say about the creation of the world and how nature points to God. My closest friend (who is pastor) has hinted many times that I should be in ministry, and even the other day told me that I should be a teacher of the Bible after calling me to clarify a passage from the Book of Revelation. My wife also is encouraging me to pursue theological studies. My dad has several degrees including a doctorate in theology and he would be a wealth of knowledge for me. I think I would enjoy pursuing masters and doctoral studies in theology, but I don’t think I have the gifts of administration and I don’t enjoy leading people, so being a pastor is not the path I want to travel. I read the above article and got discouraged because I felt that I belonged more in the “Should Not” category. I read it to my wife and she gave me a different perspective: it seemed to her that your article was aimed at current pastors as and that since I wasn’t one that negatives such as not having support didn’t apply to me. I’m a reserved person, and I don’t move in theological circles, however, if I were to make it known, I would have a lot of support from my father’s peers who are pastors and theologians and from people who have expected me to become a pastor for a long time. My question is: is it enough for me to pursue advanced degrees in theology to prepare just to teach in a seminary or college or should it only be reserved for those who are pastor material, who would go on mission trips, who would preach on the street corner for free, etc.? Thank you for your time and God bless. – Sheldon
Dear Sheldon,
Thanks for posting to Canter Bridge.
As I read what you’ve written, it seems to me that you are considering at least two options that may or may not overlap. One is pursuing theological studies and the other is pursuing a doctorate. I imagine that, for every one person who takes up a doctorate in Bible or theology, thousands have pursued a different level of theological study.
As you note, your journey into this area by the route of musicology is about to begin.
Just going by what you’ve told me in your post, I’d encourage you to take one step at a time. You’re already using your musical gifts in the church and you’re embarking on an academic program that will refine those gifts. I’d say, wring every bit of juice you can out of the Master’s degree that’s before you and then just keep an eye open and an ear available to wise people around you to see whether this step might lead next.
I hope this helps.
David, for Canter Bridge
Dear Dr. Baer,
Thank you for your insightful post on whether people should pursue a PhD. I am wondering if you could possibly speak some wisdom into my situation as a young Canadian biblical scholar. I obtained a BA in biblical studies with great distinction and promptly made my way into an integrated-PhD program at Durham University at the age of 22.
Even though i very much appreciate the scholarly rigor of biblical studies, I was also quick to be discouraged by certain aspects of the field which often encouraged a hermeneutic of doubt and scholarly debate behind, and around the text rather than in the text as we have it. My faith was also shaken by language about God that turned Him into an object of study and often neglected to speak Him in relation to Christian faith.
However, through my discovery of canonical interpretation, i started reading articles and books from Christopher Seitz, Matthew Levering, Kevin Vanhoozer, Hans Boersma, Walter Mobelry and Richard Briggs. I became very curious about participatory exegesis and the ways a sacramental worldview could inform our understanding of prophetic speech and speech-act theory.
Unfortunately, I had difficulty in Durham because of the difference in teaching style and the shortness of their terms (10 weeks). I also was getting married and it was personally very difficult because of loneliness. I experienced joy in the people i met but also great struggle spiritually as a young male figuring out faith in such a challenging environment.
I was told from two Regent College faculty members (Darrell Johnson and James Houston) that i have a gift to see the limitations of historical criticism at my age. However, i’m facing serious life-changing situations getting married this Sept and also figuring out whether i should continue at Regent College or do something that has more earning potential.
I realize i was rash i rushing into a PhD program and had not adequately prepared on a personal level and also the shock of being in a different system. Also, i believe my undergraduate education had in fact been sufficient in preparing me to think critically with others during the various seminars . I’m 23 now and I wonder if i ought to have more life experience before pursuing more education or something to make things clearer. I’ve been in contact with James Houston having coffee and breakfasts at his condo. I sincerely pray God will guide me in this confusing time where the chasm between mean and meant is so vast for many hypnotized by Enlightenment thinking and the job market for post-secondary education is so uncertain.
Now that i’ll be soon married, i obviously have more obligations in my life to make money. I also have other interests in social work and counselling psychology apart from biblical studies. People have been discouraging me to push through school again and again. I guess i’ve seen some of the good and bad about biblical studies but i see the great potential if more would be open to less “conventional” or historical-critical and more typological, participatory and theological approaches. It’s all very hard to make a decision considering the great financial and personal sacrifice to study the bible academically considering the lack of jobs.
Sincerely,
Chris
Chris,
Thank you for your very thoughtful post. I’ll respond offline.
David
Thank you David, I look forward to our conversation.
Well most Theologians arent believers. U dont have to be a committed christian to get a PhD in Theology. Some do get a PhD in Theology probably because a PhD in History would be too boring for them or cos the prospects for someone with a PhD in theology looks good. My former Pastor said, even all of his professors at University while he was studying Theology at Bachelor and then at Master level, none of them were believers.
Dear Jens,
Thank you for reading Canter Bridge and for responding to this now aging post of mine.
You are of course correct that ‘U dont have to be a committed christian to get a PhD in theology’. I trust you’ll accept that nothing I’ve written suggests otherwise. And I’m certainly not attempting to make rules about who can and who cannot.
Rather, my post is directed to believing Christians, as I note in this statement: ‘I have come to believe that most intellectually gifted Christians who at some point consider embarking on such a path should not do so. Rather, it is the calling of a deliberative, thoughtful, highly committed few.’
My own education path has taken me into the classrooms and lives of teachers of many faiths and of none. I have been enriched by each of them.
I wish you all the best on whatever path you’re on.
Thanks again, Jens.
David
Dear Dr. Baer,
Good morning! Thank you for writing this post, and I can see from the multitude of comments that it has positively affected others beside myself. I am hoping, when time permits, that you’d also be able and willing to lend some thought and guidance to my own situation.
I’m someone who has a wonderful, fulfilling and stimulating job in higher education student development. I have a Masters in the field, and have enjoyed my quick 4 years experience working with college students in a variety of capacities…teaching, “lay counseling”, coaching, event planning, leading seminars, training, and other roles that have filled up my days with satisfying work in which I see both fruit as well as areas for some much needed continued growth in myself.
I’ve always loved learning and find myself rustling restlessly about looking for more to challenge myself in and grow in, both for my own desire and thirst for knowledge and growth as well as the hoped-for reality that I would better serve others. I’ve felt this way for over a year, uncertain of what to do, and have been looking for graduate programs thinking that route would provide both the external challenge as well as internal honing and shaping I think I need.
In reading your blog, however, I find myself described mostly in the “should nots” category. This is so helpful for me, because I don’t want to do something for the wrong reason, or remain thinking it will give me something it cannot give. What would you say to someone like myself who is still young and inexperienced (28 yrs old) and who genuinely desires, even if she’s afraid, the “building up and tearing down” process a PhD could give. I just don’t know if with the other “should nots” in existence in my life that this is the best route, or if I could/should allow a PhD to do a lot of the shaping I think I still need rather than bringing to a PhD a more shaped person later in my life.
Hopefully my rambling makes sense. I am just beginning the search, your post was so helpful, and if time permits further thoughts on my situation are most welcome but not expected. Have a great day!
Heather
Thanks very much for your thoughtful post, Heather. I’ll respond via your email just as soon as I’m able. Thanks again.
David, for Canter Bridge
I really enjoyed this article. I am highly considering a career change, in that I want to leave engineering and go into either pastoral work or working in a university setting as a phD holder of divinity. After reading this, I believe I should look into free bachelor’s degree programs that can transfer to colleges for a Master’s. However, the point of the free bachelor’s degree would be to gain a better understanding of Biblical writings and find a way to get into pastoral work. Then, depending on what God calls me to do, stay with it or try for an advanced degree and eventually into a university setting. Thanks for your insight!
Hi David,
I’m thankful for this article. I ran into when I first considered doing postgraduate work during my M.Div. Since then I’ve discerned studies in World Christianity and will begin Th.M. followed by Ph.D. studies at Edinburgh this fall.
Just wanted to thank you for generously sharing wisdom you accrued along the path and providing a light for others.
Blessings,
Chao
Dear Chao,
Thanks for these heartwarming words, and particularly for taking the time to return to Canter Bridge to leave them here for me. I wish you all the best in your studies in beautiful Edinburgh.
David
As many before have stated, thank you for your thoughtful post. I am currently enrolled in a MATS program at a private college (…). My professor, who is also taking over the Graduate school, highly encouraged me to finish my MATS at an IVY league institution and to consider a PhD program. He encouraged me to research Duke, Yale, Princeton and Emory. I have felt a call toward collegiate education for many years and I have a passion to not only operate as a ‘thought leader’ but to encourage and shape other growing ‘thought-leaders’ in their relationship with God, the church, and their academic pursuits. I have a passion for teaching within the church as well and cherish each opportunity I am given to serve my local congregation, though I am aware the two forms of teaching are very different. I graduated with honors (BA in Bible and Ministry) and am currently doing very well in my MATS program. I am married and homeschool our 3 children (according to the classical model of education) while enrolled full-time in courses. I am aware that would most likely change upon entering a PhD program, but I am also interested in understanding the time commitment involved (generally speaking) in a PhD program (daily/weekly as I know actual completion time varies). I know the sacrifice will be felt on the whole family and my husband and I are seeking to remain faithful to what we perceive to be God’s call as well as preparing our family (marriage relationship, parenting, kids etc.) for such an endeavor.
Thank you for any insight and advise
A. Rogers
Dear A.,
Thank you for your very generous post. I’ll attempt to respond privately, since your details are your own.
Warmly,
David, for Canter Bridge
Very pragmatic. Thanks. (I think you might have a typo with “Sin boldly, pray regularly…”)